Curse

goldfinger · May 13, 2005, 10:01 AM // 10:01

The nature of online RPG's makes it tough to EVER create the truly level playing field... I think the rareness and the difficulty of elite skills and runes creates a very rewarding experience when all is said and done. Frankly, this game needs rare items of SOME kind and skills that are tough to get to cater to the RPG crowd, and maintain replay value. Personally if getting all my jazz was simple this game would most likely fizzle out considerably quicker than it would if it does not.

This all seems like a frame of mind issue here. You seem to take it as some sort of burden to grab a necessity... I find that it is more of a trial to reap a reward of some kind... something that seems monumental to my development despite having a little more than minor stat ups.

Stop arguing the FPS issue as well, even they do not have a true level playing field. Some players start closer to power weapons than others... In CS the money issue arises and the terrorists and CTs have different guns and starting places. The people who play the game more tend to be better at it. Look, you can cry out about an even playing field all you want but when all is said and done why would you want it? You can't argue how good it feels to finally find that great skill or rune, and if everything was as even as you wanted it to be we would all have weapons with the same damage, range, and every match would end in a tie.

and please PLEASE stop arguing that these runes are some kind of necessity. With a lower level charecter of mine I was playing in the ascalon arena with all my starting armor... did I get a booting? Hell yeah... but did I win any matches? Of course, and damn was it rewarding. Nothing good could come of abolishing rarity of items... all it will do is alienate the hardcore MMO crowd (I am not a part of this... guild wars is the first/only online rpg I have ever played) and make what used to be fun exciting items mundane and boring... runes would become what the healing icon is now.

Don't make any assumptions about how much time I have either. I work 7 days a week and almost have to put my friends aside if I want to play this game.

PieXags · May 13, 2005, 10:05 AM // 10:05

6 hours of normal gameplay then 3 of PvP gets tiring, it's 5:02am, and for some reason I've not slept. Didn't much feel like sleeping, so I decided I'd look over the forums and spread good nature to everyone because doing anything else isn't much worth my time, with the exception of explaining my actions. I just didn't see the debate going anywhere and when you get to the point of repeating statements two or three times, you know you've covered pretty much everything.

Goldfinger's got the right idea, just play for fun, you can't get around this little side note that items matter and what not, they'll always be there.

Epinephrine · May 13, 2005, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Now about the issues raised:
An FPS is about skill, and it is a level playing field for several reasons. For one thing, when I have a match against another team it is done by switching sides at the halfway point, so any argument about weapons for each side or distance to objectives is moot, as we have exchanged positions. Having FPS as a background isn't an excuse for complaining about grind, but it does influence my perceptions of it. If the point of the PvP in the game is to pit equal opponents against one another in tests of skill, it fails that test. You may argue that only an "edge" is conferred by the items, but an "edge" is all it takes to determine a winner in tight races. In the olympics hundredths of seconds determine gold/silver; in FPS a ping imbalance of even 50 milliseconds is noticeable - I can't even snipe against another good sniper at 100 milliseconds - a tenth of a second is way too much time for him to have as an edge, and I can notice and find even a twentieth of a second to be a disadvantage/advantage when the players are of equal skill levels. Granted, this might not be quite as fast paced, and uses a very diffferent set of skills, but the fact is that for some people it is about level playing fields, and that is not available in this game without a significant investment of time into making the skills/items accessible.

You would like some suggestions, right? Saus has made some in the parallel thread, which are quite well thought out. Other suggestions would be the equivalent of "booster pack" matches in Magic the Gathering and duplicates play in bridge (I play both).

How about this for a nice ladder competition that doesn't interfere at all with the standard PvP: Each team starts by being handed a list of 4 or 6 or 8 (depending on the format) class combos. they then have 30 seconds to decide who takes which class combo. Once selected they have their skill choices revealed, with a selection of skills from the various attributes in front of them. They then build their character as well as they can from the (let's say) 60 or so skills presented to them - this occurs with a few minutes to discuss things, albeit quickly, with the other team members. Then you go to fight your opponents, who started with the exact same lists as you did.

The same is true for many other players out there - they were all given the same build list, and you move on to the next round. You are stuck with the same characters but are given X minutes to reallocate skills and attributes and items, as are the teams making it to the next level, and so on.

To me, that's about skill and knowledge - you benefit from being able to build a solid character from a list of skills, but even better, you learn to throw cohesive teams together from what you are presented with. And no grind. And when I saw a game that had action and strategy, using skill selections and teamwork, that's the kind of thing I really wanted.

Cain · May 13, 2005, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

I...do not like arguing or even debating that much so...how about we all stand up to stretch for a few moments, grab a drink, sit down, and have some fun. I swear you peoples spend so much time here trying to figure out the mathematics behind the runes and the advantages and what not when you could be, you know, getting some of those rare materials.

I know from first hand experiece that runes and item mods make a huge difference. I've run builds with no runes and mods, then ran the exact same build pimped out with the best gear and did way way better against the same teams. I play GvG to win. I don't start up a guild battle thinking well it would be nice to win, I'm thinking of how bad I'm gonna tear up the other team. If I wanted to play just for run I would do unrated battles, tombs and arenas. Those areas are for run. GvG is about competition. For competition to be level everyone must have access to the same stuff. If runes are in the game, then we need all of them. If they are not, then I'm happy too as long as everyone has the access to the exact same equipment. I should not have to spend 100 hours pure farming just so I can stack up to the guilds that do. This is the point that people don't understand. Grind is not fun for PvP serious people.

Stur · May 13, 2005, 02:12 PM // 14:12

The best solution I can think of and that I've seen suggested here would be to chop the game in half. Make the PVP characters only able to PVP with other PVP characters. And the PvE characters can only PvP with other PvE characters. A kind of separate but equal solution. Kind of like having 2 games in one but the 2 games don't interacted and have no affect on each other. That would be an acceptable solution, that way if you never make your pvp character and unlock everything you never have to face someone that has.

Mountain Man · May 13, 2005, 02:26 PM // 14:26

A few comments:

1. Some of you seem to think "grind" means any time you do something that you don't find particularly rewarding (travelling to a new location is a "grind"? That's a new one on me!). I think for this discussion to have any meaning the word "grind" should be objectively defined and that definition agreed to by discussion participants.

2. Do "grinders" necessarily dominate "non-grinders" in the PvP arena? If yes, how much of that is based on items obtained through grinding or the fact that "grinders" are inherently more experienced and skillful players having practiced for sometimes hundres of hours?

Ramus · May 13, 2005, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stur

hehehe I played DAOC 3 months before I could PvP in that game, way back befor the battlegrounds..

doh I told myself I wouldn't post again.. bad stur! bad!

3 months? I played for like 6 months before I could pvp.

I ranked up about 70 days of playtime in that game in the end, I cant believe I ever grinded that much. But that was also my first mmorpg.

The only thing was, once you did get to level 50, PVP was fun as hell. Taking forts and such was great.

Shamblemonkee · May 13, 2005, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Mountain Man did you ever post over on PlanetBlack&White?!

Cain · May 13, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

1. Some of you seem to think "grind" means any time you do something that you don't find particularly rewarding (travelling to a new location is a "grind"? That's a new one on me!). I think for this discussion to have any meaning the word "grind" should be objectively defined and that definition agreed to by discussion participants.

Doing missions is not grind as it's part of the story and you character is developed as you go along. Quests can be seen as grind as they are very time consuming, but are completely optional if you only want the skills you need for PvP or PvE for that matter. You don't need all the skills, just the ones that make or break your builds. Unless of course you're good enough to play all 30 class combinations with every possible skill combination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

2. Do "grinders" necessarily dominate "non-grinders" in the PvP arena? If yes, how much of that is based on items obtained through grinding or the fact that "grinders" are inherently more experienced and skillful players having practiced for sometimes hundres of hours?

If two evenly matched players meet up and one has runes while the other one doesn't then the person with runes will win. This isn't an assumption this is a fact. Unfortunately I cannot go into the details of the testing I've done and others have done due to the NDA but if two evenly teams match up then items will be the deciding factor which is unacceptable.

Example: We both have 50 life. I hit you with a stick for 2 damage and you hit me with a stick for 3 damage (2+1 becuase of a rune). We both hit each other repeatedly at the exact same time starting at the same time. Guess who will die? Me becuase of your +1 to stick damage rune. You didn't win becuase you had more skill, you won becuase of an item. This is the problem with runes. Now I am forced to go and kill 230130382 squirrels so I can find the +1 to stick damage rune just so I can compete on a level playing field with you.

Mountain Man · May 13, 2005, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamblemonkee

Mountain Man did you ever post over on PlanetBlack&White?!

Yes, but that was years ago!

Mountain Man · May 13, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cain

If two evenly matched players meet up and one has runes while the other one doesn't then the person with runes will win.

Thanks for answering my questions, but I have a follow-up:

How "real world" have your tests been? Sure, if you put two players in an artificial match-up where they're just mindlessly attacking each other with one doing slightly more damage then of course he'll win. But how often does that sort of match-up actually happen in game?

Skult · May 13, 2005, 03:37 PM // 15:37

We have to remember that: Hours Played=Skills Learned

The main problem here is "attitude" people. Look upon the so called grind as an adventure; this will go a long way in reducing your neurotic fixation of having to uber dress your virtual doll in the fastest time possible.

May 13, 2005, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

Thanks for answering my questions, but I have a follow-up:

How "real world" have your tests been? Sure, if you put two players in an artificial match-up where they're just mindlessly attacking each other with one doing slightly more damage then of course he'll win. But how often does that sort of match-up actually happen in game?

alphas testing and BWE testing for me. And I know Cain is in alpha also.

I dont mean to sound harsh but some of you just dont know how bad it is because you dont know how items can have a huge impact. I'll give you an example though just to start off with:

Take an Elementalist. This class is limited by their energy pools and mid-high cost spells and are a burst damage machine. Elementalist are balanced on the surface since for all the damage they can do they have to hit a brick wall of energy managament issues. Give them something like Air Attunement at 15 spec for 55 seconds of up time. The recharge is 60 seconds on the spell so that's 5 seconds of downtime.

Add in a +20% to enchantment mod on an Air Wand.
Air attunement now recharges in 72 seconds instead of 55. Thats an extra 17 seconds of energy management. Instead of using 10 energy to recast it they end up generating more energy in the long run(actual amount is based on build).

Then you have the effect of Bow strings and Elemental modifiers on weapons which makes some skills unusable.

sama · May 13, 2005, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Heh, another one...

I think the biggest problem people seem to have on this board is the inability to see the other side's perspective. Everyone is comparing their experiences of other games from MMOs, to RTS, to FPS. However, how many have actually "beaten" the pve portion of the game and how many have actually played "high level" pvp? For those that have never seen the extremes of both pve and pvp, it's really easy to question the experiences of others and dismiss them as baseless or exaggerated.

To be clear, I personally believe Guild Wars has too much grind, not compared to other MMOs, but too much grind to get to the end game of competitive pvp. I'm a very competitive pvper. I play with and against top guilds everyday and am privy to many of their stories and experiences because my guild shares a vent server with Fianna and all the other top/alpha guilds on that server. Runes and weapon modifers makes a huge difference. If every player on an 8 man team has 8 superior runes of vigor and maxed their respective priority lines, they are far more powerful than if they weren't. Here's a case study:

Lightning Orb 10 = 70 damage
Lightning Orb 14 = 94
Lightning Orb 18 = 118

A coordinated offense with 4 air eles at 18 air would kill someone at full health even before the best monk in the world could react. How likely is someone going to do this you ask? Well, a guild called Down Fall ran that build and they finished 6th last BWE.

Ok, to prevent this from getting too long, it's the skill grind that's most disheartening to this pvper. Currently, I dislike everything about it, the elite capturing, the exp grind to get skill points, and even the fedex quests to get skills. That's not the point of pvp and doing those missions don't make me a better pvper. Like others have said, we should spend our time practicing pvp and testing builds rather than leveling 2-3 chars, running missions, and spawning bosses. Many members of my guild feel the same way and don't have 50 hours a week to grind for skills let alone runes. So we're pretty far behind other top guilds and not sure when we can truly be effective with the builds we want to play. I'm afraid that some of my better players will quit before they even get a chance to have fun...

Mountain Man · May 13, 2005, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

I dont mean to sound harsh but some of you just dont know how bad it is...

To be quite honest, I've never played PvP.

Quote:

I'll give you an example though...

Yes, I'm aware that certain characters can have a theoretical advantage in specific situations. What I'm asking is, are these theoretical advantages having a significant or even noticable impact on the actual game? In other words, are guild battles dominated exlusively by grinders with non-grinders not even having a chance?

May 13, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Yes the advantage is noticeable, very noticeable especially if you play Elementalists or Warriors with those items equipped. Even if it wasn't noticeable it actually happens and everyone should have a fair chance of acquiring this stuff.

chalt2 · May 13, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by sama

I think the biggest problem people seem to have on this board is the inability to see the other side's perspective.

I'd have to agree,and that what leads to the flaming

Quote:

Originally Posted by sama

Everyone is comparing their experiences of other games from MMOs, to RTS, to FPS. However, how many have actually "beaten" the pve portion of the game and how many have actually played "high level" pvp? For those that have never seen the extremes of both pve and pvp, it's really easy to question the experiences of others and dismiss them as baseless or exaggerated.

My main question still remains though, and that is WHY is it such an emergency to get the skills and runes and everythings else right NOW, why does it seem that the devs haven't even had a chance to catch up issues that were in play before release and after only 15 days somepeople are throwing the noose up and over the tree limb. I do understand that you do need the skills and runes to compete but just because player x has no life and can play for 180 hours in 15 days so that he or she can be uber and what not and player B can only play for 75 hours and only has a few items that makes he/she just above average. So when playrs B and X go into battle X has better stuff and so then gets the win. Now whats to say that in a month or maybe two player B has now put in over 220 hours of game time and has gleened all of the items, skills and upgrades needed. Now he goes back in vs the dreaded X and proceeds to win this battle and many, many others.
Yeah I know "cute" story but it not "real", why not, why isn't that accecptable. I just don't understand the urgency, this is NOT a beta weekend, there is no time limit, what IS the rush?

Acidalia · May 13, 2005, 06:59 PM // 18:59

For skills, requires Time.
Same as in real life, if you wanna do something you use time

kerpow · May 13, 2005, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Let's take two players, A & B. Both just leveled their W/Mo to level 20 and then player A bought all the best gear in the game off Ebay.

Yes, Player A will have an advantage but how much of an advantage is it?

Assuming even "skills", can player A watch the newest episode of Charmed and easily destroy player B?

Soul Monarch · May 13, 2005, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalt2

I just don't understand the urgency, this is NOT a beta weekend, there is no time limit, what IS the rush?

I've got to be fair here: What if people don't really want to play the PvE... at all?

So far I have seen a fairly decent number of people who's complaint was that they bought Guild Wars as a kind of FPS-to-RPG crossover game. They like the strategy and character building, but really only want to use it to out-wit and out-manuver in PvP. I like both aspects of the game, but for the people who only wanted to do PvP this can be a big deal.

Maybe they will decide to do PvE a bit later on, but isn't unreasonable to ask that they be able to make PvP characters without going through all of that PvE content if they don't want to.

It is, naturally, up to the devs to decide what kind of game they have and if/how they will alter it for the PvP-only crowd. But I certainly recognize the issue, and I've got to say that I support them in this.